Curse

sama · Jun 01, 2005, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dumachum

I finished the game. 25 days old. 600,000+ exp.

600k exp and no grind huh? ok dude...

Quote:

I am Level 20 with most skills unlocked for warrior, monk, mezmer, and necromancer and all but 1 or 2 elites unlocked for War and Necro.

i can believe that. if you spent 25 days on pve, i can believe that. so what...only 200 or so skills to go? mebe another 14-21 more days to get the rest at your current pace?

Quote:

Most majors and all but 1 superior rune still remain LOCKED.

So you haven't grinded for runes yet? is that what you're saying, cuz you been kinda ranting here. (not trying to put down, trying to understand)

Quote:

My teams have no problem being competetive in ToPK and unless the others are very coordinated usually stand no chance at stopping us. My guild has won the hall, have our guild hall, etc.

really, only extreme coordination can stop you? what guild are you in? i love when random ppl say how godly they are =)

Asplode · Jun 01, 2005, 11:19 AM // 11:19

I'll be honest I haven't read any posts between the opening one and here, but as a personal opinion I believe UAS will destroy the replay value of the game, simple as that, for both PvE and PvP players. If you start with everything unlocked and laid bare before you, you get bored with it.

Now, I've got experience in both PvE and PvP, 2 level 20 characters and 1 more on the way, many Fissure and Underworld experiences to boast, plenty of ToPK runs, a handful of HoH fights and the very rare win, and most of the 'good' skills unlocked.

At the same time I understand the pure PvPer's plight; and that is being forced to remain in the prebuilt hole, under the shadow of more 'dedicated' players and constantly being talked down to, as prebuilt characters are frowned upon by the community, even if some were built by the top guilds during the WBE's. It's easy to assume pvpers are lazy but you have to consider that they might not have the same amount of free time, or are simply casual gamers.

Also, there's the looming shadow of the fact that when looking at a prebuilt's skill list there's a huge library of locked skills, forbidden from the non PvEer's access, like an addict sitting outside of a no-smoking bar.

Now to get to the meat of the issue, and that is why a roundabout player like me is against (maybe not so zealously so, but against nonetheless) the UAS.

Have you ever played a frustrating game with lots of grind and eventually just gave up, and found an unlock all levels, unlock all items cheat, and used it? How much longer did you play that game after that?

Not only does it kill the replay value of the game for people who'd use it, but it'll also negatively influence the replay value of the pve facet of the game as well.

I agree that not having a UAS option will go against the original concept of Guild Wars, that is removing all mandatory grind entirely, but at the same time part of the reward for people who play PvE is that they're accomplishing something. How aimless do you feel when you're working and unlocking things that you could do with the push of 1 button?

PvEers log on GW with an agenda, a to-do list besides simple quests. You need a certain rune, you have to sell some item, you have to capture some skill, etc. If you know you can do it all in a few seconds, you begin to ask yourself why the hell you're working towards it. You feel vain working at something others have gotten so easily. Everything requiring dedication loses all merit, and drive. I understand that this whole 'grind' thing is what GW is against, but that shouldn't necessarily mean take all accomplishment and goal-setting and time-reward out of the game.

Don't get me wrong; there are plenty of positive aspects to the UAS idea, for example if a large chunk of the playerbase is constantly exposed to all of the skills and all of the item components, then imbalances in the game will be exposed, exploited, and fixed in quick order, in other words, the game will evolve much faster, working towards that unattainable equilibrium.

However, at the same time the entire game, every facet, strategy, substrategy of the game will be exhausted at the same alarming rate, leading to what I've been hinting at all along, a killed replay value.

Of course, it's quite easy to have us split the community down the middle, have your pvpers on one side and pve'ers on the other side but the schism will only be the bane of what GW is all about, and that's ALL players struggling against each other towards some obscure, renewable, persistant goal.

In conclusion, to answer your question, whoever started this thread, the reason PvE'ers are against a UAS and UAS ladder that "wont affect them" is because it does affect them; it strips all notions of merit and accomplishment and prestige and elitism from what they work for.

Mormegil · Jun 01, 2005, 12:11 PM // 12:11

While I'm a spectator of this depressing show that, alas, still goes on, I'm kind of happy Software Houses couldn't care less about us. Happy in a singular and perverted way, of course.
I remember a 118 pages thread on the official Steam forum, back in the days when Half-life 2 was out. More than half of the people couldn't even enjoy the game at its full power because the music and the sound effects stuttered badly on many machines, regardless of specs.

Do you think Valve solved the problem? Of course not! Forums where populated with whining (and THAT was whining with a reason), and Valve couldn't care less. A patch was out that fixed nothing.
This somehow relieves me, because if they don't give a s..t when there's a serious reason for whining, imagine how they care when there is not. It takes 5-6 hours to get an Elite Skill with a good party. If you don't have a good party, find one. If you don't have 5-6 hours occasionally, they why did you buy the game in the first place?

That said, I'm among the ones who probably WON'T HAVE those 5-6 hours, so that I won't have all the Elite Skills for PvP. So what? With all the Elites, serious players will still own me, and I'll still own anything below a serious player.

I'm not a fanboy but I do love this game even though it has its flaws.

Play more, whine less.

The Virago · Jun 01, 2005, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quintus

This isn't a MMO, though. So your point is already moot, but for the sake of arguing...

Even if this was an MMO game it wouldn't (and doesn't) need this type of gameplay, simply because it doesn't have monthly fees. Those MMOs that you refer to have this "grind/timesink" gameplay because of the addictive nature that they have.People see the gameplay after the "grind" as a carrot dangling from a string. This "carrot" is impossible to get to, but the people continue to play and pay for the game month after month in an attempt to finally get to the fun gameplay after the "grind". But since Guild Wars does not have a monthly fee, these mechanics are not only unnecessary, but they are actually detrimental to the game. (This is because the more people play the more costs are accrued that are not paid for by monthly fees.)

Obviously you are among the number who 'do not get it'.

1) Guild Wars is an MMO. They may market as some other variant/image of the choice, but it remains they meet every criteria of an MMO and few or none of the other genres.

2) Just because there is no monthly subscription doesn't mean there is no need to keep people addicted to the treadmill, as it is the treadmill that will insure purchase of chapters and hence, maintain or increase the revenue stream. This is not in any way eliminated simply because you're paying in six month increments as opposed to monthly ones.

3) It is a demonstrated fact that forums whine is the best example of addiction and few forum whiners ever actually quit. People who quit don't spend weeks whining and threatening, they just do it. Kind of in the same way that real PvP guilds don't whine about "the grind", they just do it.

Barkam · Jun 01, 2005, 04:09 PM // 16:09

I am sorry virago, you are wrong. Quintis is correct, the devs agrees with him and they said it on one of the interviews. I wish I can find a link to show you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virago

Kind of in the same way that real PvP guilds don't whine about "the grind", they just do it.

Does that mean you are a part of a real pvp guild to know this? We are all complaining about it, but at the same time we go through the grind just to try to make the best out of it. But that doesn't mean that we just take it and not offer suggestions as to how to make the game better. I, like most serious pvp'ers out there, want to keep supporting A.net. But the way the game stands right now we aren't going to buy the expansions. And I don't want that to happen.

Redfang · Jun 01, 2005, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Maybe we need even more ladders to accomodate those who believe the playing field isn't level.

We could have a dial up ladder, a dsl ladder and a cable modem ladder.

We could have a minimum requirements ladder, a recommended requirements ladder and a superior computer ladder.

Then we could have age brackets ladders so that young people with better eye/hand coordination won't have an "advantage."

We need a ladder based on typing speed and accuracy skills.

There must be different ladders for those who use teamspeak and those who do not.

We could have ladders based on previous PvP experience in video games, for beginners, intermediate and expert.

Plus we need seperate ladders for people with vast amounts of PvP experience in this game and people who do not.

There should be a seperate ladder for alpha testers, beta testers and people who did neither.

An hours played ladder would also be helpful.

Then we need an IQ ladder, lest we have some incredibly intelligent person tee up against some ordinary person.

A ladder is needed for people who die a lot as opposed to people who seldom die.

There should be large guilds, medium guilds and small guild ladders.

There should be time played ladders.

Why not a good build/silly build ladder.

Very important is the good team strategy/bad team strategy separate ladders.

Who could argue we don't need a listens/follows directions well versus clueless ladder?

There has to be a reads fansites and studies the game/learns as they go ladder.

Players who receive gifts or are twinked need a seperate ladder from people who earned everything they have.

If our goal is to make everyone the same, boy, we have our work cut out for us! UAS is just a drop in the bucket ...

Zorlag · Jun 01, 2005, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Hi Asplode, you seem like a reasonable person so I'll respond to this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asplode

I'll be honest I haven't read any posts between the opening one and here, but as a personal opinion I believe UAS will destroy the replay value of the game, simple as that, for both PvE and PvP players. If you start with everything unlocked and laid bare before you, you get bored with it.

Now, I've got experience in both PvE and PvP, 2 level 20 characters and 1 more on the way, many Fissure and Underworld experiences to boast, plenty of ToPK runs, a handful of HoH fights and the very rare win, and most of the 'good' skills unlocked.

At the same time I understand the pure PvPer's plight; and that is being forced to remain in the prebuilt hole, under the shadow of more 'dedicated' players and constantly being talked down to, as prebuilt characters are frowned upon by the community, even if some were built by the top guilds during the WBE's. It's easy to assume pvpers are lazy but you have to consider that they might not have the same amount of free time, or are simply casual gamers.

There are two types of PvP oriented players as well. Casual ones are those who play the game in random servers (I'm talking about fps games here) and don't get involved with the scene more than that. At best they'll be known as server regular and that's it. Then there is the other group that I've called here competitive players. They enjoy statistics, tight competition and challenging games and most also value fairness. And maybe I can also identify third kind of PvP player, I guess you could call them "power players" or something like that. They enjoy using PvE portion of the game as a springboard to PvP and prefer to see their PvE'ing have to impact on PvP. As you can see the two types of PvP'ers can't get along because their priorities are so different. I've seen it here and in lots of other messageboards.

As for UAS destroying replay value, games like these don't inherently have much replay value. Once you have seen what there is to be seen, that's it. World is not dynamically changing all the time. This is a good reason for the very least to allow maxing character after reaching end of the game if you prefer PvE to have some relevance to PvP (which I don't). I can give you good example how competitive portion of a game will treat a game they cherish. They keep playing PvP. As long as there is competition, that's where these people will stay. They won't change games at a drop of a hat if they are happy with their current game. For example there is a cup running on Clanbase right now that is for game called Unreal Tournament. That game was published 1999. They even have little money prize on the cup this year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asplode

Also, there's the looming shadow of the fact that when looking at a prebuilt's skill list there's a huge library of locked skills, forbidden from the non PvEer's access, like an addict sitting outside of a no-smoking bar.

Now to get to the meat of the issue, and that is why a roundabout player like me is against (maybe not so zealously so, but against nonetheless) the UAS.

Have you ever played a frustrating game with lots of grind and eventually just gave up, and found an unlock all levels, unlock all items cheat, and used it? How much longer did you play that game after that?

Not only does it kill the replay value of the game for people who'd use it, but it'll also negatively influence the replay value of the pve facet of the game as well.

I agree that not having a UAS option will go against the original concept of Guild Wars, that is removing all mandatory grind entirely, but at the same time part of the reward for people who play PvE is that they're accomplishing something. How aimless do you feel when you're working and unlocking things that you could do with the push of 1 button?

I would wholeheartedly agree with you if this game was a single-player game. However, meat of GW is PvP. There's plenty of PvE content too but that will be exhausted pretty quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asplode

PvEers log on GW with an agenda, a to-do list besides simple quests. You need a certain rune, you have to sell some item, you have to capture some skill, etc. If you know you can do it all in a few seconds, you begin to ask yourself why the hell you're working towards it. You feel vain working at something others have gotten so easily. Everything requiring dedication loses all merit, and drive. I understand that this whole 'grind' thing is what GW is against, but that shouldn't necessarily mean take all accomplishment and goal-setting and time-reward out of the game.

Don't get me wrong; there are plenty of positive aspects to the UAS idea, for example if a large chunk of the playerbase is constantly exposed to all of the skills and all of the item components, then imbalances in the game will be exposed, exploited, and fixed in quick order, in other words, the game will evolve much faster, working towards that unattainable equilibrium.

However, at the same time the entire game, every facet, strategy, substrategy of the game will be exhausted at the same alarming rate, leading to what I've been hinting at all along, a killed replay value.

PvP can't be exhausted like PvE because it's dynamic. Opponents change and you have more human interaction there than in PvE portion of the game. Eventually non-hardcore players will get bored with the game and leave for greener pastures or are transformed to hardcore gamers. But to get a scene you need to have competition first and that's stumped at the moment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asplode

Of course, it's quite easy to have us split the community down the middle, have your pvpers on one side and pve'ers on the other side but the schism will only be the bane of what GW is all about, and that's ALL players struggling against each other towards some obscure, renewable, persistant goal.

In conclusion, to answer your question, whoever started this thread, the reason PvE'ers are against a UAS and UAS ladder that "wont affect them" is because it does affect them; it strips all notions of merit and accomplishment and prestige and elitism from what they work for.

It has been said few times that Anet should intruduce lots of PvE rewards, more customization and equipment that gives you bonuses on PvE fields. Bringing that stuff on PvP automatically diminishes competive scene however.

Aug · Jun 01, 2005, 04:43 PM // 16:43

I agree with Virago. The game NEEDS the grind to keep its playerbase. The grind keeps people playing, and they need people playing to buy the next expansion.

Why did people continue playing Diablo 2? Because of the grind to get better equipment. And this game is almost no different from D2. About the only difference is a chat room with graphics (towns/outposts). They simply replaced the 'uber' equipment with runes and elite skills. And they've got some better security to prevent hacking. That's pretty much it.

The Virago · Jun 01, 2005, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkam

I am sorry virago, you are wrong. Quintis is correct, the devs agrees with him and they said it on one of the interviews. I wish I can find a link to show you.

Er, you do realize that marketing position is not the same as genre catagorization, right? In other words, they can call this whatever they like, but if it is online, offers play to more than one person, and has more than one location in which to play, it is a Massively Multi-player Online Game.

It doesn't matter what they say, it matters what they are. If you don't get this, I doubt there is any help or hope for you to understand the rest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkam

Does that mean you are a part of a real pvp guild to know this?

I am a member of three of the four guilds I mentioned in this thread. So yes, I a part of a 'real pvp guild'... moreso than you, I would wager. Of course, you may actually have been PvPing for more than oh... eight years through every PvP game to hit the shelf, but you know what? I seriously doubt it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkam

We are all complaining about it, but at the same time we go through the grind just to try to make the best out of it. But that doesn't mean that we just take it and not offer suggestions as to how to make the game better.

No, 'we' are not all complaining about it. I don't care how many people you THINK support you or agree with you, you cannot and do not speak for everyone who PvPs. Deal with the reality, m'kay, because part of my own irritation and persistence here is due to the insistance of you and others that somehow you're the 'Great Spokesman' for everyone playing PvP and you... just... are... not.

If you can't understand the difference between making suggestions and complaining, chances are there's a huge dissonance that is insuring you're going to be frustrated more often than not. There are about oh... five threads out of close to eighty that have actually been SUGGESTIONS. Guess what? This thread is not one of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkam

I, like most serious pvp'ers out there, want to keep supporting A.net. But the way the game stands right now we aren't going to buy the expansions. And I don't want that to happen.

Most 'serious PvPers' aren't wasting time whining here. They make a quick, concise, polite thread in the area requested by the mods/admins and then, go back to the game safe in the knowledge that they have done as much as can be done to make their voice heard.

You see, serious PvPers don't demand the world (or a game) conform to their mindset, they just figure out how it works and then beat it anyway.

Gee, that's about the tenth time I've said that and it seems no one who is yelping 'NOW NOW NOW' is getting it.

~ponder~

Guess it really is a waste of time.

Ok. I'm done. Good luck with getting what you think you want, and if you actually do manage to get it, trust me when I say I'll be around to remind you that you just KNEW getting this would make your life perfect.

Because I know already that you'll have something else lined up to whine about... that's how 'you folks' operate. Not PvP players, because you're not, really. You're actually worse than the rabid carebear, because you run around telling anyone who will listen that you're 'The Average PvP Player' and you are so far from it that it isn't funny.

So like, um, thanks for making all PvP Players look bad, mate. Good job. No, really, I mean it.

Echo Eternal · Jun 01, 2005, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Totally 100% agree with everything Asplode wrote, above. Very well thought out and expressed post against UAS.

And for the flame-bait portion of my post, let me reiterate all the other posts stating that this game has no grind. I think it's incredibly sad that players cannot comprehend the need to play 20-30 hours to gain level 20 via PvE, unlock most skills, including a few elite skills, and obtain several runes. I mean, how many hours have you guys put into PvP? I'd wager more than 10. Hell, how many hours have you guys put into this topic?

Honestly, to call the PvE level experience in this game a "grind," is insulting to all true "grind" games. I understand the point of many of these anti-grind posters: you don't want to have to spend even one minute obtaining skills or runes via PvE. I got that. But, please, don't butcher the meaning of the word "grind" in an attempt to support your position. It's not that you are against grinding; it is that you are against putting any effort whatsoever into obtaining the skills that you so desire to use. I hope you can understand why many of us view this as whiney and lazy. Maybe you don't mean to come off that way. I'm sure you view me as patronizing and annoying, or even bitchy. Well, so be it.

We aren't actually going to agree on this. You guys like to call it grinding, even though most of you have probably not even attempted to try the PvE game out. I like to call you lazy for your failure to acquire skills yourself. I might even go into the old-cratchety-guy routine and note thhat this is what is wrong with youth today. They want everything handed to them on a silver platter and don't wish to work even one iota for it. Even if that iota is interesting, provides lots of content, and is quick to boot. Moreover, I also like to call you blind, or at least lacking some sufficient form of insight, since you fail to understand that an UAS function will eviscerate the game in the long run.

Loviatar · Jun 01, 2005, 05:05 PM // 17:05

one thing i would truly like is an agreed upon definition of just a few key words

casual is at the top of the list

to me a casual gamer finds a game and plays it as long as they are having fun (frustrated can be fun) and will not play if something in reallife needs doing

that includes anything from spending time with friends and family to the cat box to ........

i have in excess of 70 hours of exploring on my character and am starting the academy mission to get the prince to safety

for me that is casual gaming

to me hard core is 4-10 hours a day where other things are put aside as unimportant

example is a person with wife (expecting) and young daughter who

gets up 2 hours early to play losing sleep
manages to squeeze in another hour in the afternoon
and gets another hour in the evening

weekends is all gaming he can do

the above person stresses he is a casual gamer

CAN WE AT LEAST DECIDE ON WHAT A CASUAL GAMER IS?

I AM TRYING TO AT LEAST GET SOME COMMON AGREEDED ON TERMS BETWEEN US IF NOTHING ELSE

Aug · Jun 01, 2005, 05:08 PM // 17:08

This game definitely has a grind. After 200 played hours, 300k XP, and 0 unlocked Superior runes, I'd say there's definitely a grind here

Maybe not on the same scale as EQ (never played), but close to the amount that WoW has (I've got about 600 hours played), and far more than Shadowbane has (I don't even want to contemplate how many hours I spent in that game... thousands, I'm sure).

GW definitely has a grind. It has a grind because it's an MMO. Or it's an MMO because it has a grind. Either way, the business model for GW is the same as every other MMO. They've just consolidated their billing cycle.

Double post content:

I'd say a casual gamer is someone who puts in no more than 15 hours a week. That averages out to around 2 hours a day. Which is actually quite a lot, if you have other commitments like children, or a significant other who wants to do something else with you.

Echo Eternal · Jun 01, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aug

This game definitely has a grind. After 200 played hours, 300k XP, and 0 unlocked Superior runes, I'd say there's definitely a grind here

Maybe not on the same scale as EQ (never played), but close to the amount that WoW has (I've got about 600 hours played), and far more than Shadowbane has (I don't even want to contemplate how many hours I spent in that game... thousands, I'm sure).

GW definitely has a grind. It has a grind because it's an MMO. Or it's an MMO because it has a grind. Either way, the business model for GW is the same as every other MMO. They've just consolidated their billing cycle.

Completely disagree. GW does not fit the standard MMO business model on several fronts, not least of which is the lack of a monthly fee. Other MMOs required a "grind" of sorts in order to keep their playerbase interested in the game and continue the monthly paycheck. Guild Wars did not impliment the same "paycheck" style of grind because it did not have to given it's own game design.

I have difficulty believing you've put in 200 hours played and are not yet 20. I don't mean that to sound judgmental about your playstyle. The game has been out for only a few days more than a month. According to that number, you've literally logged more play time in this game than most people bill at work.

But for people who's goal is merely to acquire skills and runes, I think 200 actual hours played is extremely steep and unreasonable. Lets be clear about our definitions. I do not define exploring, wandering around, PvPing or anything else part of the PvE supposed-"grind" aspect. The grind is only made up of actual missions (although not actually necessary to acquire most skills, it makes it far easier to move between cities and is required for a very few elite skills), quests involving skills, and rune-camping. It does not typically take even close to 200 played hours to acquire those things.

Quintus · Jun 01, 2005, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virago

Obviously you are among the number who 'do not get it'.

1) Guild Wars is an MMO. They may market as some other variant/image of the choice, but it remains they meet every criteria of an MMO and few or none of the other genres.

2) Just because there is no monthly subscription doesn't mean there is no need to keep people addicted to the treadmill, as it is the treadmill that will insure purchase of chapters and hence, maintain or increase the revenue stream. This is not in any way eliminated simply because you're paying in six month increments as opposed to monthly ones.

3) It is a demonstrated fact that forums whine is the best example of addiction and few forum whiners ever actually quit. People who quit don't spend weeks whining and threatening, they just do it. Kind of in the same way that real PvP guilds don't whine about "the grind", they just do it.

1. Would you please post a list of all these "criteria". So I may be one of these people who "gets it".

2. Take a look at the Mario series. In this game series Mario is just as strong at the beggining as at the end. There is no grind in any of those games, and yet people still go out and buy every new Mario game. It is my position that the grind-based gameplay is competely unnecessary, and you have yet to prove otherwise to me. As to the matter of what will get people to buy expansions, I think all that is needed is to expand on the story and to add new PvP content. If the game's story is good enough, it will draw people to it much like a good book. For example, someone reads book A and loves it. Book A's sequel comes out. The reader of book A immediatly goes out and buys book A's sequel. Book A's writer rejoices at the profit.

3. I saw your list of "good" PvP guild, and I noticed that none of them are currently playing Guild Wars. If you would, can you please post a list of the top guilds in Guild Wars that are not "whining" about the grind. If you could, that would be great. Thanks.

Asplode · Jun 01, 2005, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Alright I read the posts between my other one and this and I see there's a bit of confusion on what a "casual gamer" is.

My own definition of casual gamer is someone who just plays for fun, someone who doesn't have the time to dedicate to a PvE character to 'grind' and just plays the game like an FPS or RTS: jump in with a prebuilt, play some random 4v4 rounds since he can't get groups in tombs since everyone wants reputable players, and when his short expanse of leisure-time is burned up, simply exits the game. He or she doesn't come into GW with the agenda I detailed earlier, doesn't have heavy responsibilities in a guild, if at all having a guild.

I have my own experience with a casual gamer in my guild that goes against the model, though; he's got a wife, kids, and a job to take care of, so he's rarely on but when he's on he gets a lot of support from the rest of us, he started a week, maybe a week and a half ago but he's already level 20 and unlocking many things in the game.

So I suppose ANet's mission of allowing a 'casual' gamer to still have fun with the game w/o exhausting all its features is well accomplished, as well as rewarding even the casual player, or at least, my version of 'casual player'.

I myself am definitely NOT a casual player...regretfully.

One more thing that I notice people are getting bent out of shape over is the term "grind".

I really can't see why people are getting angry at each other over this, but I'll try.

It seems to me that the heart of the conflict is that the "PvE" people are convinced that those who bash "the grind" are simply lazy and inferior to them, while the "PvP" people believe that the "PvE" people are elitist and are against the UAS just to exclude them from the fruit of the game.

If I'm wrong please let me know, but from the little bit I read that seems to be how people are feeling.

ONE last note, and a question at that, is... Is this "UAS" thing proposed by ArenaNet, or are we all arguing about a player-made suggestion? If it's the former I can see what all the fuss is about, but if it's the latter, I suddenly feel silly for burning, oh, the last 10 minutes writing this.

Lazarous · Jun 01, 2005, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Its the latter.

Saerden · Jun 01, 2005, 06:48 PM // 18:48

I am against UAS because it would totally kill the PvE part of the game. Arenanet invested lots of time and effort to try and create an extremely fun, interesting world to explore. They tried to write an immersive, exiting story that will force you to do "just one more mission" to find out how it all ends. They failed miserably, because those people who enjoy PvE dont care about it at all. They only are playing it because they can unlock skills for PvP. They will never play Pvp (or at least not on an competitive level) so they dont actually need it, but if those rewards are gone, it will totally ruin PvE for them. Why suffer through the boring story, and see the ugly scenery if you <<<gasp>>> dont get REWARDED for it with something that has NO CONNECTION to the PvE part at all? So if they removed the unlocking of runes and the 5-6h to get one elite skill (not my claim), there would be no point at all to play PvE.

/sarcasm off

Aug · Jun 01, 2005, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Echo Eternal

Completely disagree. GW does not fit the standard MMO business model on several fronts, not least of which is the lack of a monthly fee. Other MMOs required a "grind" of sorts in order to keep their playerbase interested in the game and continue the monthly paycheck. Guild Wars did not impliment the same "paycheck" style of grind because it did not have to given it's own game design.

I have never paid monthly for any MMO. A monthly fee isn't the sole, or even primary, criterion for an MMO. Every MMO to date has provided some bulk-rate purchasing method. How is the expansion driven model so different? My understanding is that A.net plans to release expansions much faster than traditional MMOs, which average about 1 a year. They're going to extract close to the same amount of money from you, per year. You just have the option of playing the 'old' game for free, but I think they realize that's not so bad, because you're more likely to come back and buy the expansion after you quit for a short period of time.

Quote:

I have difficulty believing you've put in 200 hours played and are not yet 20. I don't mean that to sound judgmental about your playstyle. The game has been out for only a few days more than a month. According to that number, you've literally logged more play time in this game than most people bill at work.

Where did I say I wasn't level 20? I said I have roughly 300,000 experience. If you looked at your character sheet, you'd [likely] realize that's quite a ways past level 20. And I never claimed to be a casual gamer. I know I've logged more hours in game than I have at work since it's release.

Quote:

But for people who's goal is merely to acquire skills and runes, I think 200 actual hours played is extremely steep and unreasonable. Lets be clear about our definitions.

200 hours to unlock all runes wouldn't be so bad. However, I have played 200 hours and have unlocked 0 Superior runes. That is too long.

Quote:

I do not define exploring, wandering around, PvPing or anything else part of the PvE supposed-"grind" aspect. The grind is only made up of actual missions (although not actually necessary to acquire most skills, it makes it far easier to move between cities and is required for a very few elite skills), quests involving skills, and rune-camping. It does not typically take even close to 200 played hours to acquire those things.

Now I'm confused. It does not typically take even close to 200 hours to acquire what things? The text, the way I read it, seems to suggest that it doesn't take 200 hours to unlock runes & elites... however I have played for 200 hours, and I have not yet unlocked them all... I'm not even close.

sama · Jun 01, 2005, 08:22 PM // 20:22

i must say, some of the comments (on both sides..gg saerden) have been incredibly witty and funny. it's quite amazing to see how two sides, playing the same game, have such complete and totally different perspectivies.

anywayz, one of the newer arguments against UAS is that it is deemed a "god mode" which will make you invicible which you will use to "pwn" everyone else for two weeks and then quit through utter boredom. This is along the same line of argument that UAS is considered a cheat or a free ride. Now, other people have stated this before, but just to emphasize, UAS definitely doesn't make you godly. The pvp'ers perspective (not argument, but perspective) is that the pvp game doesn't open up until you have the majority of the skills in the game. so the game doesn't really begin for me until i have my skills unlocked and my items unlocked. most of you already know this but, there's no uber build. everything has a counter in guild wars -- provided the skills are unlocked. that's the problem with the pvp part of the game right now. we see a popular build in tombs, we know what the counter should be, but to get the skill points or to level up a new character is really a bitch just to counter a flavor of the week which will change next week.

Echo Eternal · Jun 01, 2005, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aug

I have never paid monthly for any MMO.

What MMOs have you played? Maybe I'm missing some in my line up, but these are teh MMOs I have played and they have all required a monthly fee: EQ, EQ2, WoW, L2, CoH, DAoC, Shadowbane, FFXI. In my experience, monthly fees are how MMOs expect to make money. Maybe I've missed some key MMOs who chose a different method, in which case if the MMO was any good I'd be interested in getting a list (might play it once I've worked my way through GW!

). Hence, the MMO is designed to lengthen the level/experience time.

Quote:

My understanding is that A.net plans to release expansions much faster than traditional MMOs, which average about 1 a year. They're going to extract close to the same amount of money from you, per year.

Unless A.Net intends to charge over $100 per expansion, they aren't going to come close to the monthly billers. Most gaves charge between $12.99 and $15.99 a month. Take that times 12 and A.Net would have to charge a ton of cash for its expansions to make up for the lack of a monthly fee.

Quote:

Now I'm confused. It does not typically take even close to 200 hours to acquire what things? The text, the way I read it, seems to suggest that it doesn't take 200 hours to unlock runes & elites... however I have played for 200 hours, and I have not yet unlocked them all... I'm not even close.

And I am suggesting that you are the exception and not the rule. I highly doubt that most people who aim purely for skills and runes will require even a fraction of your 200 hours played. Could I be wrong? It's possible. Given NCSoft's press releases on time required for leveling and other player comments on time required for leveling and acquiring skills/runes, I don't think 200 is the average time played. Yes, though, for the highly specific, this is purely empirical evidence.

Does it suck for the bloke who does take 200 hours to acquire all he needs? Yup, but then again if it takes someone that long to acquire merely the skills/runes they want to utilize in PvP, maybe they needed that time to learn the functionality of the game and their character.